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Fighting Fantasy

  • Mar. 4th, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Stuart

When you find yourself weak in some area, learn from the best.

I'd heard for a long time that nobody did fight scenes better than Bernard Cornwell, especially in his Arthurian Trilogy, The Warlord Chronicles. And there's plenty of good material here to study: about 1200 pages (depending on what editions you've bought) with at least one bloody bust up in every hour's reading.

I wasn't too impressed at first. You see, Mr. Cornwell is very keen to introduce you to all the mechanics of getting killed in the dark ages and it can feel a bit clunky. But, rather like learning the controls of a video game, the reader soon internalises the rules until they disappear from view, leaving nothing between us and the raw emotions of the combatants.

The battles aren't quite as I would have imagined them, but thanks to the lessons provided by the author, everything soon makes perfect sense: warriors are jammed together in shield walls so tightly they can't hurt each other and are reduced to spitting in their enemy's face, cursing him in a language he can't understand, helpless as the ranks behind him stab over his head with their spears.

Maybe battles in the Dark Ages were nothing like that. It doesn't matter, it really doesn't, because when the author describes the terror of the shield wall, something so bad that most men have to be drunk before they'll face up to it, we believe him. Every move has been thought through, war gamed with toy soldiers or a line of vegetables, or run through whatever simulation software he has installed in his brain.

The same cannot be said, unfortunately, for the fighting in Andrzej Sapkowski's “The Last Wish”. This is a great book, set in a world that gave rise to the Canon of standard European fairy tales. Beauty and the Beast, Cinderella, Rapunzel and so on. It's fast moving, entertaining and constantly amusing. But the fight scenes (of which there are many) are more dreamlike than realistic. Enemies leap to the attack when they're still hundreds of metres apart. The main character, the Witcher, performs feats that are just plain physically impossible -- even taking his special abilities into account. Sapkowski's fight scenes are different in every way from those of Bernard Cornwell, except of course, for the quantity of blood involved.

So, my resolution for Spring? Learn atmosphere and concision from Sapkowski and War from Cornwell. Both of these skills will be needed in spades when the time comes for me to write my third book.

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Comments

[info]after_nightfall wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 03:24 pm (UTC)
Oh, come on, don't be so hard on Sapkowski! Geralt is a mutant with superhuman strength and agility, and he mostly fights either monsters or non-humans. It's like quibbling with George that dragonfire can't possibly melt flesh from one's bones...

I'll give you Cornwell, though. I finished the trilogy recently, and it made a strong impression, even if the world in which not many people have all their teeth left by age 30 and "woman" is the worst insult of all sounds more than a little depressing.
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 03:38 pm (UTC)
I don't think I'm being hard at all! I went out of my way to point out how much I had enjoyed the book, except for the fighting. It is a simple fact: I didn't enjoy the fights. Can't be avoided. So, I went back to try and figure out what it was I didn't like. And, it was that the fights just did not make sense to me:

"The witcher came on faster; his fluid walk became a run -- not straight at the group quivering with swords, but circling it in a tightening spiral."

I can't see that. I can't believe it. I am very happy to admit that the fault may well be within me as a reader. And equally happy to admit that there are many flawed elements of my own writing. But that was the point of this diary. Find the problems and try to fix them.
[info]after_nightfall wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 04:43 pm (UTC)
All right, his "technique" could stand some improvement. :-) But then, maybe it's not very fair to compare something written originally in English, and a translation. I think [info]kama_police, who's Polish and a translator herself would have something to say on that score. But I'm digressing - I must confess to somewhat skimming your entry, just like I do some battle scenes, and thought your issue was with Geralt's feats of strength.

Incidentally, have you played the Witcher computer game (if you're even interested in that sort of thing)?
[info]werthead wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:11 pm (UTC)
Not sure about Peadar, but I'm playing The Witcher at the moment. It's crippled by some horrendous bugs (such as taking ages to load or save games and some performance issues) but the story is good and the game is fun. There's a special patch coming out for it in a few months which completely revamps the game and irons out the bugs, so I may wait for that to do a replay taking different choices. I like the moral consequence system, so that decisions you took five hours ago come back to bite you on the ass later on. And the amount of sex in the game is pretty ridiculous :-)
[info]after_nightfall wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:36 pm (UTC)
Hmm, ages to load? Did you install the latest patch, 1.2, I think? Load times and stability both are much improved. Me, I was bothered the most by the way some stuff was left unfinished, like not enough NPC models, and horribly inconsistent translations which also promise to be improved in the humongous patch (like Vesimir calling Triss "child" one moment and "babe" the next). But other than that, it's an extremely original and enjoyable game. I wouldn't have minded even more choices that come to bite you in the ass later, though. Maybe when the editor is released, there will be good mods to be downloaded.
[info]werthead wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:49 pm (UTC)
Ah, I'll try the patch. And yep, it's a great game. It was good to hear that they are retranslating everything and bringing in new voice actors. The game is excellent and it's a shame it didn't do better. Atari going back, fixing the problems with the game and reissuing it is a surprising move, but I think a very wise one, especially if they push the BioWare connection more. It's not quite as good as BioWare at their best but more than fills the time until Mass Effect PC and Dragon Age come out.
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)
I do like computer games, or I used to. But I haven't seen this one. Now that I'm in the middle of the book, I would like to.

Btw, I thought the translation was pretty good overall. I'd be interested to hear what Kama_police might have to say, definitely.
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:33 pm (UTC)
I thought it was well translated too. But then translations necessarily lose something vital.
[info]tenalpia wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)
Much to my chagrin I still haven't read either... but it sounds like a most excellent plan :D
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 03:49 pm (UTC)
Oh yes. Both are great in their own very different ways. But yes, Maid Sansa's comments about the brutality of the world portrayed by Cornwell are right on the mark.
[info]philsphilms wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 04:33 pm (UTC)
Cornwell writes fantastic fight scenes (best i've ever read)... and the arthurian books do cover shieldwall/spear fighting beautifully. Its a shame that some of his other research is a little hazy and that he doesn't carry the shieldwall/spear fighting into his saxon books where those techniques were still in use...

if you are ever in scotland give me a shout and well get a few folk together and put you in a shieldwall so you can experience it first hand.
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:10 pm (UTC)
I think I might just love that too much...
[info]philsphilms wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:52 pm (UTC)
it is fun:)
[info]philsphilms wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
oh, on a related note Cornwell's Grail trilogy (starts with Harlequin) could almost be used as a textbook on writing big battle scenes... utterly amazing stuff in them. (though they do contain his usual hero, his usual bad guy and his usual basic plot... he found his hero in Sharpe and just cuts and pastes him into other settings, but who cares, they are fun books)
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:12 pm (UTC)
I will check out those books after I've caught up on my fantasy and SF reading. I do like it, sometimes, when you know exactly what you're getting. Especially when you're about to set off on a long journey where alternative entertainments will be absent.
[info]werthead wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:14 pm (UTC)
Cornwell is good at big battle scenes, although not quite as great as his rep made him out to be: GRRM, Kearney and Fraser are better, Erikson's battle scenes in Memories of Ice are spectacular and I think Bakker is probably better as well. Barclay - otherwise a rather limited author - also has good battle sequences. Gemmell has a great rep but the books of his I've read don't have really big battles. I'm looking forward to reading his Troy books to see if he lives up to the promise.

For atmosphere, The Last Wish is a great book (although my ARC's disappeared: I think I lent it to someone and forgot who it was :-( ) and I'm looking forward to the next book in the series. However, it has realism problems. Geralt has that enormous sword strapped to his back which isn't really convenient for rapidly drawing it in combat.
[info]philsphilms wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)
I'd second Bakker - his research is impeccable and the atmosphere (quite distant yet involving) is wonderful.
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:15 pm (UTC)
I've read them all :-) and did love the battles, especially the one with those guys with the chorae charging you-know-who... Brilliant. But it was easier for me to analyse Cornwell having only just finished them.
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 05:39 pm (UTC)
I'd heard for a long time that nobody did fight scenes better than Bernard Cornwell

Well you didn't hear it from me anyway, that's for sure ;)


Wert, the big battles are in the gallo-roman books, mainly: Rigante 1 and 2, Stones of power and so on. Also quite a few in the Lion of Macedon.
I don't think Troy has such things. Troy is, after all, a siege (at writing which surely nobody will contest the man's superiority). You may look forward to it anyway.
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:16 pm (UTC)
Oh, I *knew* it wasn't you, Niamh! But I've read all of Gemmell by now, I think, except the Macedonian stuff.
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 06:37 pm (UTC)
I was kidding of course.


You have?!?
When I met you you only had read vol 1 of Troy, right? Or I got that wrong
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 09:36 pm (UTC)
I had only read one of the Troy books, yes. But I read Legend and Waylander etc. when they came out. Yes, I'm that old.
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 10:04 pm (UTC)
That's too long ago :P What would you remember? ;)


Jesus, over 20 years.

PS: I'm old enough too
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 10:09 pm (UTC)
I'm surprised we can still walk!
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2008 08:08 am (UTC)
It's hard enough in the morning let me tell you
[info]the_corbie wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC)
You do need to remember that Cornwell and Sapkowski are doing different things and going for different effects as a result. Sapkowski is telling a supernatural fairy tale, and as part of that he depicts spectacular individual duels: Cornwell is aiming for a gritty, realistic mass battle (and even in the one-on-one scenes he's doing something different). I don't think either approach is 'better', despite the impossibility of the feats the Witcher pulls off: they're just different. I'd like to think a good author could adopt either approach equally well. ;)
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 09:44 pm (UTC)
Yes, I do know :-) But one of them works for *me* in its context and one doesn't. I read a lot of fantasy. I'm used to things not being realistic -- dragon flight physics etc. But I like things to be realistic within the internal rules the author has set up for us.

In the Witcher fights, it was almost as if the author was missing a continuity editor. Geralt is on the left now, but was on the right a moment ago, and not because of some super leap using mutant powers, but more because it didn't matter to the author what was going on. Or so it seemed to this crap reader :)
[info]niamhotoole wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 10:06 pm (UTC)
Well, if suspension of disbelief is broken, then the author fails. It's as simple as that.
It didn't bother me, but I wasn't paying much attention to the fights. You probably were unduly, snce you're doing this fight study thingie
[info]the_corbie wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2008 10:41 pm (UTC)
Well, there is that. ;) But the rules Sapkowski is using are more fluid and the details aren't as important. Cornwell wants us to believe in his world, Sapkowski just wants to tell us a pretty story, and if it doesn't entirely make sense or he gets bits mixed up, I can cope with that.

I was able to suspend a lot more disbelief for Sapkowski, and wave away a few colourful smudges for the sake of the broad, sweeping brush strokes. I actually find that a smaller blunder is more jarring in the fine pencil drawing, so to speak.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2008 04:03 pm (UTC)
I haven't read the English version yet, only the Polish original, but from the quote you have earlier, this seems to be more of the translator's fault than the author's. It sounds pretty bad compared to the Polish version. Maybe the translator is not good at describing fight scenes?
[info]peadarog wrote:
Mar. 16th, 2008 05:03 pm (UTC)
You could be right, of course. We have a lot of Polish people here in Ireland now, but to my shame, I have only learned "Dobro Polski Sklep" so far :) So, I cannot understand any of the original. But even if you say the translation was imperfect, I still enjoyed it and look forward to reading one of Sapkowski's novels.